Interview with Jacob Wohl of Predator DC

Jacob Wohl (00:00.098)

by a lot of real cases that they had heard about over the years. And circa 2016, you had, of course, the Pizzagate speculation began based on John Podesta's emails. And you look at kind of what effort was put in by conservative media to investigating all of that. And you had people who made the claim that they really believed that there was something there worthy of investigating.

Jacob Wohl (00:28.790)

But what they did to investigate it, I thought, was just woefully inadequate. We had conservative commentators, and I won't name names, going into certain pizza restaurants and doing periscope live streams and asking provocative questions of the wait staff. And you think, okay, if you really believe that crimes of this magnitude are taking place, then you owe it to the public to do more than intermittent live streams from pizza restaurants.

That was my view. Now, what capabilities people have and how difficult it is to do more, we soon found out. So we had the idea of, well, if you want to look into all of this, sort of all of these allegations of pedophilia in DC, why not just do a remake of To Catch a Predator in DC? Put profiles online of unambiguously underage teens, wait for predators to...

Chad Law (00:59.023)

Exactly. Yeah, right.

Jacob Wohl (01:28.258)

Reach out to the teens. Determine of those predators, because what we quickly learned is that there were hundreds that would reach out. Determine which ones are the highest priority based on how dangerous they seem. If they, sometimes they brag about molesting other children to the children that they plan to molest in the future. And of course, are they high profile? So can they wield power to get away with it? That's how we prioritize them, because we just don't have enough time in the day to bust.

Jacob Wohl (01:57.198)

them in a sting house full time. And even if we did, you can't keep the team going that long. It's just an all consuming job. And as we got into this and it became sort of an idea basically in the summer of 2020 to do it this way, there became a lot of technical challenges and unanswered questions. So if you go back to 2004 when they were doing To Catch a Predator, basically you had two outlets on the internet.

two social media sites, if you will, it was AOL chat and, or AIM, and Yahoo chat. That's what you had. And all of the online activity of this sort that they pursued was there, and there was plenty of it, as we all saw. Now of course, those had gone away, other technologies had taken over in the interceding years. And we found that there were some real challenges presented by that. So namely, if you remember the old show, basically the guys reach out.

via the chats. Maybe they call the landline at the house. People who are young, may not even remember what a landline is, but at the home phone, you know, that are much younger than me. Yeah.

Chad Law (03:06.720)

I remember AIM and I remember landlines very well.

Jacob Wohl (03:10.182)

I'm just, I'm the last generation that remembers them. You know, my younger sister probably doesn't or knows what it is, but just remotely. You know, maybe they'd call the landline and they'd say, oh, are you a real little girl? And the decoy get on the landline and say, yes, I am. Come on over. And then they walk in and say, hey, I'm just doing some laundry. And it became clear to us, like everybody's seen that show. That's not gonna work. And it also became clear to us that the sophisticated guys, meaning the ones who are the federal judges,

the cops, the lawyers, the doctors, they do a lot of vetting because they know that there are such things as sting operations. They've heard of them, and they want to do their very best to avoid them and not be caught so that they can continue their crimes. And so they'll do things like request that the teen FaceTime them.

Jacob Wohl (03:59.510)

That's hard. That means you really need a decoy. They will do research. So the teen says she goes to this high school, they'll ask what high school she goes to, what grade she's in. Well, when they get on the FaceTime, they'll pose a question to her and say, well, who's your history teacher? Well, and they've looked up all the history teachers. They know who teaches at the school. And if she pauses or he pauses for a second, they're out, they're not coming. You lost them. And those are the ones that weigh on you the most are the ones that you, that.

Chad Law (04:15.100)

Wow.

Jacob Wohl (04:26.338)

you know, either because of a scheduling conflict, you couldn't bust them, or you just didn't quite get them, or they got nervous, or, and that's why you have to do another season and hope they come back, and in some cases they did come back. So anyway, there became this whole process of, just to round up, there became this process of answering these technical questions, like that one, how do you find a decoy? Hidden camera technology had advanced a lot, how do you use all that? And by the time we had answered all those questions, we did our first season in the last weekend of

Chad Law (04:37.491)

Let me ask you... Go ahead.

Jacob Wohl (04:58.518)

August of 2021.

Chad Law (05:02.999)

Well, yeah, and I've watched some of this. I mean, this stuff is incredible. I can't believe what you guys are doing. And one of the things that always kind of rides on me in the back of my brain all the time is that I feel like the term pedophile.

Jacob Wohl (05:07.977)

Thank you.

Chad Law (05:22.307)

as it turns with all of this stuff about grooming in schools and for whatever reason the left and the right constantly accusing each other of these, you know, pedophile rings or whatever it is. How do you?

Chad Law (05:39.763)

quickly sift through what's conspiracy stuff like, you know, we hear Marjorie Taylor Greene all the time talking about how the White House is filled with pedophiles. Like, how much, how do you sift through conjecture and reality?

Jacob Wohl (05:55.338)

Well, the first thing we have to do is given that when we did the first weekend of that show, and I had never engaged in any of this stuff beforehand in terms of these kinds of claims against people, but once we had that first successful weekend, it became very clear that, number one, we can't engage in any of that kind of conjecture because if we call somebody a pedophile, it carries a different weight than if Marjorie Taylor Greene does. Because

Chad Law (06:22.660)

Absolutely.

Jacob Wohl (06:25.858)

There's a hundred people who we've called pedophiles that we've busted and they're really pedophiles and we know they are because we've got them on camera coming to have sex with underage kids. So, you know, that's the first thing is we just can't even get into the world of, you know, just hurling vague accusations because we'd be sued.

it carries a different weight when we do it because of the track record of busting actual pedophiles. It would be like if a prosecutor went out and randomly called someone a pedophile, you just can't do it because it just carries a different weight and you have to take it seriously and it would devalue the instances where you're actually calling out the people you've busted. So we have to bear that in mind, number one. And we have a perfect track record, I will say, also,

never busting somebody, you know, mistakenly, I can't imagine anything worse than doing that. And I don't even mean not busting like we heard the episode. I mean, we haven't even had them into the home. So we one of the first things we sorted out is we have clear, written, well understood ethical guidelines that the person has to acknowledge three times, you know, in a way that we have records of.

three times, three separate times, that they understand the person they're talking to and coming to see to be an underage teen.

Jacob Wohl (07:59.870)

And we've had people say, you know, for instance, well, why do you say sometimes 15 or 16 or 14? Why don't you say 12 or 11? Really simple answer. It's a good question. And the simple answer is, like I said, these people do a lot of vetting. That means you have to have a real decoy who can do a FaceTime call. Now, I can find, it's very difficult, but I can find an adult, because you obviously can't bring an actual child anywhere near this stuff. I can find an actual adult.

who can pass for 14 with the right kinds of makeup or lack of makeup or braces or fake braces or Photoshop or what have you. I can't find and meets all the other requisite requirements but I can't find an adult who looks 10. That gets into the world of statistically impossible. I mean, maybe there's one in the country or somebody with a genetic malady or something but then they have to have all the other traits too. So.

Chad Law (08:44.606)

Right.

Chad Law (08:53.671)

Correct.

Jacob Wohl (08:54.986)

So that's why. And the other thing that I will assure you is that you have to remember this, and it's another important guideline, just to give people the rules of the road here and how we do this so that they understand what it is we're talking about. One of the other guidelines we put into place is that we just had to pick an age, and we did, and we have not busted anybody under the age of 36.

or at least saying they were 36. One guy was 32, he said he was 36 for some reason on the site, well, we busted him, it's still a crime for him. But we picked that rule because we didn't even want to raise the specter of a Romeo and Juliet defense. Of well, he's 22 and she's 16. And we could debate that all day, but we just didn't even wanna waste time with getting into that.

Chad Law (09:43.387)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (09:50.130)

And so we set that as kind of the minimum age. And many of these guys are into their seventies who we've busted. We've had some old guys, you know.

Chad Law (09:55.947)

and has the age requirement that you guys have put in internally, is that also a way that you use to filter through some of the, you know, because you said you had an exorbitant amount of leads coming in, is that, does that help you guys filter through that you're staying with 36 and above?

Jacob Wohl (10:15.198)

Yeah, it helps us filter. That's right. And it also helps us find people that have worked their way into positions of power and can use those positions of power to evade justice, which they do. So we've busted a lot of people that work for three letter agencies like the DOD, CIA, NSA, DIA, people with top secret security clearances. People, I mean, we busted a guy comes to mind.

64 years old, they call him the creepy grandpa, 64 years old Scott Mexic. And the things that he planned to do with the teen, I won't spoil it, people can watch the episode, he's in the season two premiere on Rumble, people can find it. But he's 64 years old, he's coming for a 15 year old girl, he's bringing drugs and booze, wine and cheese and bread and dildos and...

Chad Law (11:11.804)

Ugh.

Jacob Wohl (11:12.030)

and balloons that have these creepy, pedophilic messages written on like fortune cookie sized pieces of paper are printed on them actually, inside the balloons with glitter. And he said, I'd encourage you to read the messages in the balloons, they're very nice messages. They were just the most creepy messages you can even imagine. So we show some of them on the show. And then there's that dynamic of, some of the things are so graphic, we can't even, we have to blur them or, you know, censor them to some degree because.

not even because, oh, YouTube will send this or that, just because it's literally too offensive to show people, it's too sickening to show people. Or you get into issues of them sending explicit photos of themselves and things like this. The other thing people say is, well, and you mentioned that term pedophile, I've had some people, and it's very rare, but some people say, well, aren't they technically hebofiles, not pedophiles, or this or that. Well, here's the thing. I mean, it's a...

Chad Law (11:42.949)

Mm-hmm.

Jacob Wohl (12:05.406)

It's a bizarre predilection that these people have. You know, if you look at the population of 18-year-old women, and you can talk about whether that's still creepy or not, but it is legal, you can find 18-year-old girls who look 25, and you can find 18-year-old girls who look about 12. There's a lot of variation in that population, and they could go date those girls, and it would be perfectly legal. Ethics aside, it would be perfectly legal. They don't.

Jacob Wohl (12:32.102)

And what we find is as we do these investigations and loved ones and other people reach out after the fact, it was 15 that weekend, it was 16 that weekend, it was 14 that weekend, but that's always just the start. It's 14 that weekend, but last weekend it was 12, or the weekend after that it's six, or it's infants.

Chad Law (12:50.889)

Wow.

Chad Law (12:53.391)

I would imagine that these guys talking about how they do their research, etc. and how there's a look difference. Like you just said, there's an 18 year old woman, she can look 12 or she can look 30. But

there are certain changes that occur within the body during and after puberty. That even though someone is 18 and looks 12 years old, from what I've read and understood, that things like pubic hair, and even if they're small breasts that have developed, they're all turn offs to these guys anyways, so really, it's an age thing, but it's also a physical feature thing,

Jacob Wohl (13:41.086)

And a psychological feature thing, a power dynamic thing, even probably more so than the physical feature thing, is what we find. So, you know, the 18 year old, and it's kind of crazy to talk about 18 year old girls mature, but they're more mature than the 14 year old girl. And that's the idea. And so there's power dynamics at play there. And like I said, it's 15 one weekend, but the next weekend it's 12, or the weekend before it's eight. And so.

Chad Law (13:47.568)

Wow, okay.

Jacob Wohl (14:09.270)

The bottom line is that the law sets in clear lines. Sometimes people talk about different states with different ages of consent too. That's another thing that's come up occasionally. But it is very much federally legal to solicit for sex minors through the internet in all 50 states under federal law. Just not, there's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. These guys are doing that. They're very...

Typically, in the vast majority cases, they're requesting pornographic images from the decoy posing as an underage teen. They're sending them to the decoy. They're sending lewd messages. All of these are totally illegal. So usually, in almost every case, by the time that these guys walk through the door, they've already committed four, five, six, ten, fifteen felonies by the time they walk through the door. Just in their online conduct, as far as lewd images, lewd texts.

Chad Law (14:57.692)

Wow.

Jacob Wohl (15:03.426)

LUDE videos, requesting LUDE images from the miner, all of that.

Chad Law (15:11.207)

that is you would think in this time of age, let me back up a little bit. It really, and I talk a lot about this when it pertains to the Catholic Church, for example.

Chad Law (15:24.039)

and other types of pedophilia or child sexual assault, which I love how people get into like, you're talking about, oh, age of consent, and are they an herbophile versus a pedophile? To me, that is all outside circumstantial nonsense that completely avoids.

Chad Law (15:45.591)

what's actually happening, which doesn't matter what you call them. It doesn't matter who they are, where they came from, their background or whatever. They're predators. And so when I hear people trying to get around some of the various, you know, legal loopholes, that's a red flag to me for sure. And I also think that that's just such a...

Chad Law (16:09.871)

It's such a good way to deflect actually seeing the reality in front of you because this is difficult stuff to watch and difficult stuff to accept. I would even venture to say, and I'd love to hear your number, but I would venture to say that 75% of Americans have no idea the actual level of sexual assault against children that's happening on a daily basis. And so...

When it becomes more difficult, I think it's easier to deflect. Do you see that a lot of people kind of hone in on these stupid little outside circumstances because they're trying to reflect embracing the reality of this stuff?

Jacob Wohl (16:55.002)

Sometimes that happens. Yeah, it's a way of rationalizing, or they're just actually sympathetic to this group of cretins, which is an entirely different, bizarre phenomenon. But the other thing to stress is that these people are there to hurt these kids. I mean, folks need to understand that some of these guys, on rare occasion, they can be rather convincing.

Jacob Wohl (17:23.046)

with their lies that oh, I was just here and I was just going to watch a movie with her and we were just going to chat. I was never going to do anything like that. And they all say that. And then suddenly, what happens is you say, well, what'd you bring in your bag there with you? Because they all bring these big bags, you know, whether they're backpacks or duffel bags or what have you. Like this teacher came from underage teen, he's an elementary school teacher, he's buck naked within one and a half minutes of entering the home.

Chad Law (17:47.175)

Hang on.

Chad Law (17:51.075)

Did I lose you?

Jacob Wohl (17:52.214)

We walk out, he's completely nude. DC elementary school teacher named Thomas Berner. He's our season two episode two, extended length episode, people can see. He's naked with 90 seconds entering the home. He's got a backpack, it's filled with crystal meth, various pills, condoms. It's got pot and other things. He's brought booze. Oh, and he's got two cans of bug spray.

He has two cans of bug spray in the backpack, which he planned to use basically to blind the underage teen, to blind her, so that she was in some contorted scenario in his mind, not able to point him out from the stand as the man who raped her. So he's got two cans of bug spray that come falling out of his backpack as the police are there, searching his backpack.

Jacob Wohl (18:51.358)

I mean, it's just absolutely unbelievable.

Jacob Wohl (20:43.250)

Hey there, Chad. Hey, what I did is, yeah, I saw when you dropped, and I just kept going, and I wrapped up talking about the teacher who had brought bug spray to blind the teen, along with all the drugs and everything else that he brought. And so people have got to understand, these guys are there to cause tremendous harm to these kids. Had another guy that same season bring what I can only describe as a kill kit.

Chad Law (20:44.549)

Hey, can you hear me?

Jacob Wohl (21:12.906)

He was going to tie up a duct tape, in fact, this underage teen, and a raper and killer.

Chad Law (21:21.657)

Wow. Let me ask you a kind of an odd question. When I'm just so curious, what is the most bizarre thing that you've found in these big bags that these guys carry around?

Jacob Wohl (21:34.014)

Well, this is a little bit outside of a bag, but it is the most bizarre one yet. We had a guy drive in three and a half hours from Pennsylvania and was pulling in the driveway with a trailer filled with two alpacas that he was going to unleash on the teen to rape the teen. He said they they hump everything. They'll love humping you. And he wanted to basically engage in bestiality. Season one, we also had a guy bring a dog, a Rottweiler that he was going to

Chad Law (21:54.274)

Ugh.

Jacob Wohl (22:02.578)

unleash on the teen and have sex with a dog. So we've had some of that kind of stuff go on. Within the bags, I mean, the bug spray maybe takes the cake, but I mean, it's all kinds of stuff. We had a guy who was a senior DOD contractor named Jack Smith. And he pulled up in a blue BMW, walked in very confidently, and he had this huge duffel bag filled with

Chad Law (22:13.381)

Yeah, that's crazy.

Jacob Wohl (22:32.738)

all kinds of sex toys and lingerie. And he brought high heels from Nordstrom. And he was going to, among these sex toys was a sex swing and a drill and carriage bolts. And he was asking where the structural beams were for the house so that he could drill in carriage bolts to the structural beams and put up this sex swing in the living room of this girl's parents' home.

Chad Law (22:56.710)

And how old was this girl?

Jacob Wohl (22:58.986)

The girl was, in that case, I think 15, and the guy's in his 50s. And so you're dealing with a level of sickness and derangement with these people that is, it's hard to even begin to describe, but you see it on camera. And thankfully we've really advanced on the hidden camera side, certainly from season two, especially to season three, we really stepped up our hidden camera game. And...

Chad Law (23:01.502)

Wow.

Jacob Wohl (23:28.130)

The other thing we changed is that the way that Hansen always did it is that he sort of talked to them, they weren't sure exactly who he was. They're kind of still not sure who we are until we tell them, which is not usually towards the end. But then you tell them at the end and then the big cameras would come out, the big ENG cameras, over-the-shoulder cameras. And until that point, it was just static sort of what they call PTZ or pan-tilt zoom, basically webcams that were hidden throughout the house. So you only had these kind of static angles and you had a lot of jump cuts.

Jacob Wohl (23:57.746)

We bring out the big cameras at first. I just said, let's give it a try. I bet people won't run away with the big cameras if they wouldn't have run away anyway. And it turns out they don't. Most of them, it's kind of a fight or flight response. And then there's a third option, which is take a seat and talk to us. That's kind of seems like the best option to a lot of them. So they do sit down. Big cameras are out before they know it. And they talk and...

between that and having two interrogators, my partner Jack Berkman and I, he joins in as well. We work by day at the same lobbying firm and then he joins in, he interrogates as well. It creates, I think, a superior interrogation of these guys where we really do get to more information. Sometimes if we have the time, the interrogation can last 40 minutes, but in many cases we have one after another, after another, after another showing up to the house to where

A lot of times we have to shoot one out of the back hatch because there's another one at the front door.

Chad Law (24:55.965)

Wow. Now, are you as surprised as I am right now, or were you, that these guys would actually sit down and have, it's like, have they never met a criminal defense attorney in their entire life? Like, be quiet, leave, you know, leave, don't talk to the cops, and these guys are sitting down with a sting operation, talking like it's normal.

Jacob Wohl (25:16.338)

And they're on camera and they and they know they're on camera because there's a big camera in their face and a boom mic. You know, it's it's something where even outside of the context of like our show, my dad being a criminal defense attorney, I'm always amazed how often people because everybody's told and they're told to the blue in the face, you know, don't talk to the police, never talk to the police. Don't talk to anyone about this. Just call your lawyer. Say you want a lawyer.

That is your right in America. It's not your right in every country and they'll beat the hell out of you until you give a false confession. But here in this country, uh, they don't do that. And you can talk to your lawyer. And so, but there are these little tricks that exist where you get people to talk and, and we employ all of them. And so we will talk to these guys and say, look, I mean, this is already out there. The, the, the question of guilt or innocence has been answered.

People are either going to hear your side of this or they're not and they're going to make up their mind and make some terrible assumptions if they don't hear your side, so you ought to give your side of this and And then they talk or you know various tricks like that that get them talking

Chad Law (26:22.789)

Yeah.

Chad Law (26:27.437)

And often it makes it worse, right, for them?

Jacob Wohl (26:30.862)

Often it makes it worse. Usually it makes it worse for them to talk instead of just running out the door. I can't think of many cases where they've come out in any way that was persuasive, because the other thing is, we've got a team throughout the house, it can be up to 40 people in the house, depending on the season, and printing out the transcripts furiously. We have all the transcripts, we have the calls, if it was in a state that was legal to record the calls, we have the calls, we have the transcripts.

we have everything right in front of us on clipboards with the most salacious items highlighted. And so, you know, it's, we've got them dead to rights. And pretty much they always say, we ask them that we say, is this your first time doing this? Then they, with only one exception, they say, yes, it's their first time. We had one guy say, he does it all the time. But they always say it's their first time.

Chad Law (27:12.411)

Yeah.

Chad Law (27:26.385)

Now you brought it up, I wasn't gonna ask, but I was gonna ask you offline, but since you mentioned that your dad's a criminal defense attorney, that's the understatement of the lifetime, your dad's very, very respected criminal defense attorney. How much does he kind of guide you and get involved in some of this stuff and help you with some of the difficult questions, or does he care?

Jacob Wohl (27:48.598)

Well, he's been our offsite counsel for a lot of this, along with some local attorneys in Maryland and in Virginia. He on the federal side. No, and Jack, my partner, he's a lawyer in his own right, but when you talk about legal counsel for a show like this, you actually want them offsite, and that's one of the things they'll tell you, because if they become a witness, they can't, they can't,

Chad Law (27:58.589)

can't get better off site cancel

Jacob Wohl (28:18.450)

adequately or possibly at all represent you. And if they're a witness, that's a different thing. So, and in terms of our side of things, I mean, it's very buttoned up. We follow all the laws, the people we bust are unambiguously breaking the laws. And, you know, it's very much a buttoned up situation. As far as, you know, coordinating with law enforcement, it's extremely challenging. I would urge people to remember that

Chad Law (28:45.337)

Yeah, that was what I was going to ask.

Jacob Wohl (28:47.222)

You know, the first two seasons of To Catch a Predator, even with NBC's infrastructure and budget, they didn't get the police to participate. It was only the third season when they finally did. And same with us, the third season, we finally got the cops, in this case, in Anne Arundel County, Maryland, to participate on site. But even that's very hard, you know, because the cops have to do something called a shift change. It's like, well, this guy's five minutes down the road, so you can't do your shift change now, but then the other guys are pulling up anyway.

Chad Law (29:10.363)

Right?

Jacob Wohl (29:16.266)

and then the streets jammed up with cars, and then they want to take 45 minutes to effect the arrest. And there's a lot of challenges.

Chad Law (29:23.665)

Well, I think there's got to be outside challenges too, just within law enforcement and the fact that you're essentially handing them a criminal on a silver platter. And there is some ego there about who's taking down the criminals. They run their own sting operations, at least through the FBI, from what I understand, all the time. So I'm sure there's some jealousy there of what you guys are doing. So other than just operational challenges like scheduling, I'm sure there's some ego and some inner, you know,

Chad Law (29:54.041)

police politics that keep them from helping.

Jacob Wohl (29:55.870)

Yeah, you can definitely get that. And that's why, you know, one of the things that we've done is, I remember in the third season that several of the cops, it wasn't just one of them, because we'd play like, find the hidden camera. They walk into the house, they couldn't find it. Or them. You know, there was about a dozen hidden cameras and they couldn't find them because they're so well hidden. I mean, you could be looking directly at it, you won't see it either because of the use of.

Chad Law (30:11.606)

Wow, that's awesome.

Chad Law (30:16.200)

Yeah.

Jacob Wohl (30:21.714)

very artful use of one-way film or one-way mirror film or, you know, hiding it within a Keurig machine where the button's shiny, but the lens can see through the button. I mean, we fabricated a lot of appliances and furniture from scratch for that purpose, but they said, you guys should show us how to do this. And as we got into it, you know, it became something where, yeah, we could do some training, but the real bottleneck for them is the decoy. All of this starts and ends with recruiting a really solid decoy who can...

Chad Law (30:29.797)

Wow.

Jacob Wohl (30:51.518)

meet all the requirements, show up every day, work ungodly hours talking to dozens or hundreds of these creeps and be able to do that and stay psychologically sturdy, plus memorize all the details of their backstory perfectly and do method acting. We have to interview 50 people that look like good candidates to find one who can do the job.

Chad Law (31:10.630)

Yeah.

Chad Law (31:18.037)

Mm-hmm.

Jacob Wohl (31:18.238)

It's very, very tough. And we've had a boy decoy in season two as well. Very, very, very difficult to find. And the police can't do that. I mean, the best they can do is have their youngest looking officer come in and, and you know, that's not gonna cut it. Not if you wanna bust the high level guys. And that's why you see when a local, you know, PD does one of these things. The FBI mostly does just pure cyber ones where they sort of say, hey, would you like to, you know, oh, you wanna sell me some, you know.

Chad Law (31:29.309)

Correct.

Jacob Wohl (31:47.602)

exploitation materials. Sure. I'll buy it. Then they go arrest them. I mean, it's it's they're kind of in the pure cyber realm, same thing with the HSHSI, who also does these, they do a good job, but it's kind of pure cyber. And that's good stuff, too. But when you talk about busting, you know, real hardcore and veteran pedophiles who are sophisticated members of society. Like I said, I can't see a way that you can do it.

without having that rock solid decoy who by the way might happen to have a little bit of a you know let's say checkered background or or professional situation right right

Chad Law (32:25.213)

Well, they need something to tap into. I mean, this doesn't, this sort of crime isn't necessarily something that can be surface level. I mean, this is deep.

Jacob Wohl (32:33.641)

Mm hmm. So the cops can't go and hire an only fans girl to do this is the point they just the department the department bureaucracy won't let them do that. So what we've done is worked in a number of situations around the country where

Chad Law (32:36.509)

Got it.

Jacob Wohl (32:47.630)

Departments will approach us or we'll approach them or intermurderies will connect us and We will basically go in we bring with us a whole turnkey operation all the equipment we bring our own encrypted radios our own Computers, I mean it's a big, you know Basically a couple of dozen pelican cases full of equipment to do this we take over a rental house We stay in town as long as we need to they

supervise us or even sometimes deputize members of our team to the extent that's necessary based on their own state laws. And we'll be there for three weeks to up to four or five, six weeks either in full form on location the whole time or we'll sort of virtualize some of it by spoofing location on the dating apps and the apps and stuff like that. And we'll run the whole sting. We'll do the hard part. We'll take care of the decoy, all of that.

They affect the arrest. They take the credit. We're sort of ghost riders. They do their press conference. They can say how many high profile guys they busted. And they did, they affected the arrest. They had the foresight to bring us in. Of course, that comes with a price. We can't, these things are very expensive. We can't do them for free and we've got to pay bills ourselves and all of that. So we charge. But it ends up being the case that

Chad Law (34:12.170)

Good.

Jacob Wohl (34:15.990)

that it ends up costing them a fraction of what they spend to do their own in-house operation because they got to cover overtime and this and that and they don't necessarily have all the things worked out. Maybe they have to hire a separate subcontractor to do the hidden cameras. We do all of it in-house. Turnkey, the evidence is perfect. The chain of custody is perfect. We use law enforcement grade programs to suck the data off of the phone so that it's unimpeachable, all of that.

Chad Law (34:33.395)

Wow.

Jacob Wohl (34:46.634)

And they can take the credit and they can do the prosecution and we can head out of town and Hopefully not be called into wherever to testify if one of the guys takes it to trial That's been a an upkeep thing with all this is having to go in and testify and things get moved and drive out here And do this and do that. In fact, I got to go out to Annapolis on Friday For one of these guys who was arrested in season 3 For his trial and we'll see whether it actually goes to trial or not, but it's scheduled for Friday So I got to drive out there. So that's another thing we do

Chad Law (35:14.489)

And you're still doing this as, I don't want to say side, I mean, it's so serious, but this still, you don't consider this your main career right now, right?

Jacob Wohl (35:25.834)

You know, I wish I wish we could do it full time. I wish we could. It's just a question of of growing it. And it's a question of capacity, whether we're doing it. Whether we're doing it in, you know, what I would call a, you know, sort of TV capacity where we do a show, or whether we're doing it in a cloak and dagger contracting capacity with with a with a department.

Jacob Wohl (35:54.490)

really the most you can do one of these things is for a year or something like that, the absolute most. Even with all the money in the world, because it is so taxing from an energy standpoint to do this, just to be so locked in for weeks and weeks and weeks, go there. When you're there, it's a 20-hour day. Because it's not just the guys who show up to the house, remember, the guys that are set to show up next are texting, FaceTiming, calling the whole time.

Chad Law (36:20.009)

Mm-hmm.

Jacob Wohl (36:20.930)

the guy's coming tomorrow, every house that drive, every car that drives down the street of the house, you have to run into the closets because that could be your guy pulling up. So it's a constant up and down adrenaline dump throughout the day for everybody, let alone us. And the security staff, the camera guys, the sound, the technical support staff, decoys certainly, they do the most out of anyone I'd say. It's tough.

Chad Law (36:29.163)

Okay.

Jacob Wohl (36:49.234)

And so you can only do four of these a year at the most, but like I said, it ends up for these departments, it ends up costing usually about a quarter of what they'd spend. Department here locally in Virginia spent about four and a half million dollars on a sting. They caught five or six day laborers. That's great. You know, those guys are dangerous. There's no question about it, but for a quarter of the price, we could have busted the day laborers and.

Chad Law (37:16.105)

bosses.

Jacob Wohl (37:17.512)

You know their bosses and many others. Yeah

Chad Law (37:20.669)

So walk me through a little bit about how the jurisdiction works, because obviously in DC you've got the District of Columbia, you've got Virginia on one side, Maryland on the other side. Now I know you guys have like a home base that you work from, but how does it work when someone, let's say, transports child pornography from, like you said, Pennsylvania down? At that point, when it crosses state lines, doesn't it automatically become an FBI issue?

Jacob Wohl (37:48.330)

Well, anything through the internet can be an FBI issue or a DHS issue. They both can do federal jurisdiction. And so anything through the internet can always end up there, because there's always a server somewhere in San Francisco that touches something or something like that. So anything with an internet crime can involve federal immediately. That doesn't obviate the state situation.

Jacob Wohl (38:17.554)

by necessity, but oftentimes if the feds are interested, then the state guys will let them handle it, of course, because of budget issues and other things. And so that's one piece of it. We've ended up filming all three seasons in Maryland, and that was only because we have to find a house that we can rent on a short-term rental that

has a long, long list of characteristics that make it work for the show. Like for instance, the way the house is placed on a lot has to be such that we can scope a car coming down the street. We can see the car before they can see the house. And they can't sit there and scope the house because there's no, say like, you know, the street's not wide enough for them to sit there and block the street and scope out the house.

Chad Law (39:05.885)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (39:14.850)

Because a lot of these guys, we learned this, a lot of these guys will show up three, four, five hours beforehand and sit there and sit on the house, scope it out. So we make that impossible for them. They can go sit down the street, you know, on another street, but they can't sit there and scope the house. That's one characteristic. You know, it has to have a big island because in terms of the safety component, we like there to be a situation where, you know, they're on the other side of an island from us so that we can just put some space and they can't go hands-on necessarily real easily.

Chad Law (39:20.157)

Hmm

Chad Law (39:39.441)

Right, there's space between, yeah.

Jacob Wohl (39:45.806)

A lot of other safety considerations that come in as far as angles and how close it is to the neighbors You know, is there a good place to use as the kind of command center in the house preferably? It's a basement because then you don't have footfalls over top of the bottom story as people move around a lot of things like that that we have to think about angles and then just how does it look on camera all of that Many many factors and is it available on that date and how much does it cost? So it's ended up being in Maryland just just by happenstance of that

Chad Law (40:05.714)

Right?

Jacob Wohl (40:14.434)

could have easily been in Virginia or even in DC. In fact, we're kind of now, we're kind of put off by the idea of doing another one in Maryland, just because the authorities there have been less than ideal in helping us out when it comes to, when we get a crazy one once in a blue moon who will go in and.

do like the self file criminal charges for wiretapping and stuff like that. It's just totally ridiculous, of course, but they always get thrown out. But we've got to then schlep out there and waste a lot of time. So that's where it's been jurisdictionally. I mean, like I said, it's all illegal all around. All the states have internet protection laws that protect children in their own states for the most part. I think it's every state now. So it can really be all of the above. I mean,

Chad Law (40:49.505)

Right.

Chad Law (40:58.013)

great.

Chad Law (41:07.237)

Well, the only reason why I ask is because you guys are doing an incredible job. I mean, the detail that you've just walked through is just my jaw is on my desk right now. I can't even believe it. And I have a few more questions about that. But the reason why I ask about jurisdiction is because generally, like in my background, for example, having, you know, owning a marketing agency, sometimes we would get involved in advertisement.

Chad Law (41:33.469)

litigation where people we would run an ad and people say it's false advertising or whatever and So the DA if it was criminal say someone was impacted I was just involved in one that was had a criminal instance to it that Didn't have anything to do with us. But bottom line is is that the DA in Orange County passed it to The county and then the county passed it to the feds and it was all like a hot potato

Chad Law (42:03.163)

I wasn't sure if some of the predators that you all catch can fall into some of these jurisdiction loopholes that allow them to either get much lighter sentences or not sentences at all.

Jacob Wohl (42:16.554)

Well, you know, and it's not even just, the bottom line is there's no jurisdictional issues really. I mean, these people are always in a position where an agency can step in and action if the agency has the will. And whether they have the will is the big thing. And it's not to say the cops don't have the will, it could be the supervisor, it could be the DA, it could be a lot of things. If I told you some of the low sentences in some of these cases, it would blow your mind, depending on the judge that day.

Chad Law (42:44.549)

Well, that's something that's such a huge thing that we're hearing with conservative politics. One of our biggest talking points right now is crime. And these sorrows-sponsored DAs that have been strategically placed throughout the country to help sort of undermine our criminal justice system. And part of that undermining is...

Chad Law (43:08.101)

destroying the, you know, the sentencing and making everything much lighter or doing catch and releases on violent crime, whatever it is. And so I did want to ask you if any of that has, if you've experienced any of these DAs.

Jacob Wohl (43:23.294)

Yeah, well, you have the judges. Yeah, you have the judges that do the sentencing, and you have the DAs that will sometimes crack these plea deals, and it's just unbelievable what they'll do. They'll let a guy plead to the drug charge, basically, sometimes, and...

to a misdemeanor drug charge, even though they've got him on 14 felonies, and then they'll just still get sentenced to three years probation, as long as he doesn't molest any other teen in that period. I mean, I've seen that. Now, the good news is that the people are exposed. They're then out there. 100% of the time, they're removed from their jobs, where oftentimes they, in the case of many of these people, have access to classified information.

Jacob Wohl (44:12.362)

or access to power or access to children, that stops. That's the good news. No matter what, that stops. That's always, there's been a universal, you know, firing and removal and investigation by employers. Just had another teacher up in Baltimore. He was coming for an underage boy, and he's a Yeshiva Jewish basically high school teacher up there in Baltimore.

Chad Law (44:38.538)

Oh yeah, you mentioned this to me.

Jacob Wohl (44:40.634)

And you just think, oh my, an all-boys school, and you just think, oh my God. You just know students have been molested. It's just a question of how many and how many they'll come forward. It's just, but we found him at least. At least it stops now.

Chad Law (44:57.273)

Right. But then do you have to like...

Jacob Wohl (44:59.266)

So we just have to, like the bottom line is with this stuff is that we just have to, you know, do what we can do. We are.

Jacob Wohl (45:11.774)

in a position to do a lot. We can do a lot when it comes to this to stop future molestations. And that's the most frankly that anybody's really gonna be able to do with jail or anything else. These aren't gonna be death penalty cases unless they, you know, find heads in the freezer. So that's all anybody's in a position to do. We achieve 90% of the effect of that vis-a-vis the exposure and we just have to focus on that because we're really, we're not in a position to, you know,

Chad Law (45:20.262)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (45:41.142)

change who the DA is, realistically. We're not in a position to implore a judge to do a different sentencing. It's just not our role. So we do what we can, you know? And I mean, I can get my blood pressure up thinking about this stuff, but I try not to. I try not to because it's just, you know what? What can we do about that? Not a whole lot. We've got a lot on our plate, but we can't decide what, we can't.

Chad Law (45:58.222)

Ha ha!

Chad Law (46:04.914)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (46:10.638)

A lot of times people say, well, why did this happen? They're almost outraged at us. And I say, look, your issue's not with us, your issue's with the prosecutor. Go talk to them. I don't, you know, we can do what we can do, but it's up to them to do further investigation and prosecution.

Chad Law (46:18.501)

Right.

Chad Law (46:24.137)

You, well, I think one of the frustrating parts for me, just looking in and knowing you is that you guys are really doing a much better job than most law enforcement agencies could ever do. You're handing them criminals on a silver platter. And it is frustrating to think about that where someone like you and your team finds a need to step up

Chad Law (46:52.349)

do what cops should be doing all the time. And I know that there's a million excuses why the agency budget or staffing or whatever it is, but children.

you would think would be the number one priority of any major law enforcement agency. And the fact that there's just hundreds and hundreds of leads coming to you guys, and it's just, it feels like wide open territory that you guys are in. And you would think that that would spur a...

Chad Law (47:28.149)

I think what I'm trying to say is that would create a chain reaction throughout law enforcement and the DA's office who recommends the sentencing, whatever the judge. You would think some good like this would create a chain reaction through our criminal justice system and it just hasn't. And I just wonder, are they just lazy or do they reply on people like you and your team to do their job?

Jacob Wohl (47:47.018)

Right, right. Well, you know.

Jacob Wohl (47:54.582)

On the police side, I have a lot more understanding or I can sympathize with their situation a lot more. Because if you understand what we're actually talking about, inside a police department or sheriff's office, they're gonna have a sex crimes unit, okay? And let's just say it's a county that's got a million people, okay? Or let's just, for simple sake, we'll talk like Arlington County.

you have a county with 200,000 people or something, you're gonna have a handful of officers in the sex crimes unit, okay? And a lot of them are gonna be women because they're gonna deal with a lot of women and girls who are the victims and it's virtually impossible to have the male officer, have the nine-year-old girl say, show me where he touched you and this, that, and the other, there's issues there. So you're dealing with a small group of people.

Jacob Wohl (48:52.846)

And they have got to be jacks of all trades. And as a result, they have to be sort of experts of none. And most of their job consists of allegations of molestation come to them. Sometimes they're false. A lot of times they are false. A lot of times, you know, every sex crimes officer has dealt with the...

Jacob Wohl (49:17.870)

crazy, you know, enraged ex wife who put the kid up to say something crazy because she wants a divorce situation or what have you. Some of them might be false. A lot of them are true. And it comes down to talking to victims and figuring out, you know, is there camera footage of this or who is the person that did it or what's going on? And, and they've got to work these cases through. And, and, and at the end of the day, there's, there's not a lot of extra capacity.

within that sex crimes unit to go and run an all consuming, just elaborate sting operation. Now that comes down to how you structure the department and what kind of people you hire and do you wanna restructure the department. That becomes a political question. But within the actual capacity of a sex crimes unit, there's not a lot of leftover capacity to do this. When we go in and do the contracting side of this,

Chad Law (49:57.764)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (50:15.926)

We'll sometimes get one person from the sex crimes unit who consulted us part time and they have to be kind of in on it We explain what's happening to them and all that and in terms of operationally We'll borrow people from the narcotics unit the gangs unit Because we we need people who know how to number one keep something very very secret Because if the word gets out there's a sting coming to town if they tell their wife and she tells her friend at the nail salon and she It's blown, you know

Chad Law (50:45.000)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (50:45.018)

we say thank you for your thank you for your $400,000 down payment, but it's blown. There's no sting happening now, or we'll catch four guys. But it's so you need people that can keep this secret. That also means that they, by the way, can't run it up the chain and say, well, we're not prepared to do this unless, you know, we can run it through the county board of supervisors. And it's like, well, sorry, you can't do it. It's not going to work. It's not going to be a super secret sting operation if you do that. So you got to pull it out of the operational budget or the tactical budget or wherever they have authorities to pull it out of. So you have those challenges.

Chad Law (50:48.617)

Ha ha ha.

Jacob Wohl (51:14.754)

We'll end up pulling people from narcotics or gangs or, really those two not even, those are kind of where you get your people that can keep up with the energy level and are young enough and they can keep things totally dead secret because those are very dangerous units to work in. And then we'll run it. So the point is within the actual law enforcement world, I can kind of empathize with it.

Chad Law (51:41.991)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (51:42.798)

federal level, they got a lot more resources, but you know, still, it's like resources in what capacity like they do these kind of national level cyber stings and what have you. But, you know, again, there's just there's limited capacity. And then lastly, and most importantly, like I said, it all starts and ends with the decoy. And so if they lack the authorities or the capabilities to hire this kind of a decoy, you can't even begin the other things.

Chad Law (52:10.793)

So is that your secret sauce? Is that your point of difference?

Jacob Wohl (52:15.666)

It's one of them and it's probably the big one. I mean, it's the decoy. It's one of them. Otherwise there's a lot of technical things that we've had to deal with in terms of, how do we put a wireless camera at the end of this cul-de-sac that's a windy cul-de-sac like a kilometer away? Well, we're gonna need an 812 megahertz transmitter. We're gonna need a directional Yagi antenna that we're gonna put in the bush and another one at the house. And so it's purely directional between one and the other. We're gonna hide it inside a box that's got.

Chad Law (52:17.801)

Okay.

Chad Law (52:31.976)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (52:43.746)

lithium ion batteries and is totally camouflaged. So these technical questions, we're developing the technical part of this all the time. I mean, I've got a room in my home that's dedicated to, and at Jack's house too, and a garage dedicated to our tinkering, technical tinkering around all this. It's incredible.

Chad Law (53:06.661)

Yeah, and I know you and no question at all that you're brilliant, but I did wanna ask you, knowing sort of your path that you've taken in the last five, six years, did this just become a hobby on the technical side? Like you're talking about all the cameras and the details and stuff, so correct me if I'm wrong, this isn't something that you've done professionally as a career before, right?

Jacob Wohl (53:34.674)

Well, I won't get into my exact educational background because I don't need anybody revoking degrees or anything. But I do have a lot of, I do have in fact some knowledge with respect to electrical engineering. So I do have that. But that gets you so far. Like I do in terms of like RF theory and stuff like that, setting up encrypted radios. I mean, that's not easy. That turned out to be a whole sub-science because there's not a lot of information on the internet about.

Chad Law (53:39.861)

Right.

Chad Law (53:46.085)

Oh, okay. Okay. It just seems so cool.

Chad Law (53:59.298)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (54:03.362)

the government doesn't exactly want you running encrypted radio networks that they can't listen into. So the internet's not full of information of how to do that. It has to be done very advisedly with regards to legalities. I got all the FCC licenses and everything else that you have to get to do that. But when we show up and we're talking on the radio, it became clear to us after season two, we're running the $30 Bay of Fangs. We put two seasons out there and I, or.

Chad Law (54:07.537)

Hahaha

Chad Law (54:11.120)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (54:30.230)

you know, season and a half and people see that their $30 radios from Amazon. I said, you know, a lot of these people have a military background, a technical background. They're going to show up and they're going to be scanning the radio, or you're just going to get a ham radio hobbyist in the neighborhood. Who's who's going to be scanning the radio is going to say, what the hell's going on here? What's this? And might say something. Then you're blown. So I said, you know what? We have to move to digital encrypted radios and that wasn't cheap and it wasn't simple. But we found out how to use, you know, DMR.

Chad Law (54:41.294)

Right.

Chad Law (54:48.623)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (54:59.278)

protocol, AES 256-bit encrypted radios. And it was a tremendously useful investment because they were also much more reliable and higher quality and everything else. But yeah, yeah.

Chad Law (55:07.521)

Right. Well, yeah, and not scannable. I mean, they can go pick up a police scanner at any Army supply store on the corner.

Jacob Wohl (55:14.834)

Right. Yeah, they're not going to hear anything besides maybe a sort of a, a sort of a staticky, uh, skipping in and out thing. They're not going to hear anything of any value. It just even being digital and not encrypted, they wouldn't hear anything of any value just by virtue of being digital. Then if they actually had a truncable scanner that can scan digital, even then it's AES 256, but encrypted, and we're running very low power.

Chad Law (55:26.374)

What?

Chad Law (55:31.241)

True, yeah.

Jacob Wohl (55:42.130)

at the frequencies that allow us to run low power while still getting through the walls and all this stuff so that the emissions are not going very far to be heard. But anyway, I probably shouldn't even talk about most of that stuff. But just to give people a sort of, no, no, no, leave it, leave it. No, no, no, just leave it. But I didn't reveal anything to, I didn't reveal anything that's going to give anybody an edge that, and they wouldn't be listening to your show anyway. But

Chad Law (55:56.456)

I'll take it off. That was really my only personal curiosity. Okay.

Chad Law (56:06.851)

No, no.

Jacob Wohl (56:10.554)

It is something just to give people a sense of the layers of complexity that become involved in this.

Chad Law (56:19.385)

Yeah, it is absolutely insane, but as I hear you talk about this, what something that keeps you know, ringing to me is that no wonder Epstein was so

Chad Law (56:31.525)

I don't want to say it's so wealthy, because it wasn't just that, but so connected. I mean, he literally, the system that Epstein and Jolene Maxwell had, where these ultra-rich people don't get their hands dirty, they commit the same crime, but they're recruited by someone else and then talk to someone else, and they've got this sort of isolated system.

Chad Law (56:56.437)

I mean, that's really the only way to get away with this stuff, right? I mean, you can't catch them when they're not in the everyday talking in society and someone else is doing that for you. Do you see a future where there'll be bigger sting operations with multiple victims or potential victims?

Jacob Wohl (57:19.958)

Well, I, you know, I, I, I'd love to crack one of those and, and get into, you know, figure a way to crack one of those. Um, it, it becomes, it becomes difficult to do without at any point acting as a, as a co-conspirator, which of course we can't do, um, because you're going to have to be able to go in and talk to people in real life. And

Chad Law (57:39.997)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (57:47.670)

the way they operate in terms of, well, they're not just going to talk to you. They're going to film you doing this first or get you to do that first. Or, you know, it's a whole kind of implicit, not explicit, but implicit blackmail kind of situation, usually. It's how that works. So I'd love to figure a way to crack one of those. And we've given it some thought, in fact, how to do that without, of course, you can't participate. That that that becomes the challenge. And

Chad Law (58:02.097)

Yeah.

Chad Law (58:14.573)

Right. Well, and I think my point there is that, again, from what I watched and from what I'm seeing exactly...

Jacob Wohl (58:20.222)

And they don't let in strangers either. So you'd have to have a whole fake identity because you can't say here I am. You know, you'd have to have a whole really, but they're doing, you know, real life, you know, reference checks and things. From what I understand. But when you talk about the obscene, that just becomes a whole other layer of bizarre that I can't even begin to understand where, how do you convict somebody of sex trafficking without saying who they traffic to?

Chad Law (58:43.769)

Well, and the reason why I bring it up...

Chad Law (58:48.521)

Well, exactly. It's impossible. The reason why I bring that up, but exactly to the air. I think that, you know, the guys that you guys are catching, um, are powerful and wealthy. However, I guess the point that I was trying to make is the reason why the wealthiest, wealthiest, you know, 1%, um,

Jacob Wohl (58:51.126)

that trafficking is not, you can't traffic something to no one.

Chad Law (59:14.309)

can skim through this, I think, a little easier is because you have these inner circle that are multi-multi-million dollar rings compared to a judge on his computer, or a dad, or a priest, or whatever it is, which I guess is what I'm saying is a lot more challenging to catch people at that level.

Jacob Wohl (59:34.634)

Well, it spans international borders and you get, you know, it spans international borders. And we talk about a certain degree of complexity that is involved with investigating these. And you just keep ratcheting it up when you talk about that. It's like, okay, well, at what level do we do this? Do we need to purchase a private

satellite footage from you know contract where you know where you can purchase high-end real-time or at least you know semi real-time satellite footage like hedge funds will do to investigate you know throughput at walmart based on looking at you know parking lot volume or whatever and you can do that is that what you need to see what is going on on some island do you need to have you know do you need to put up a fixed wing

Chad Law (01:00:05.850)

Hmm.

Jacob Wohl (01:00:30.638)

drone from an agricultural contractor that operates high-end fixed-wing surveillance drones, or for forestry. I mean, they're big, full-size fixed-wing drones, not quadcopters. Is that what you need? The levels of resources that then become important start to enter what most people would interpret as the theater of the absurd.

Chad Law (01:00:41.234)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (01:00:59.134)

I mean, and they're not absurd, it's just things people haven't even normally imagined.

Chad Law (01:01:03.567)

Right. Just so let me ask you this. My last big question for you is, you know, I'm a true crime buff. And one common theme amongst true crime shows, as they say, if you're going to

go after and catch monsters, you kind of have to be a little bit of a monster yourself in your head. Are you, like, do you just get bogged down and so depressed and angry? Like, how do you deal with it psychologically?

Jacob Wohl (01:01:36.054)

You know, the way you deal with it, this is gonna sound very strange, but it's a sense of humor. So when Dirty Grandpa brings in the balloons, we will be suppressing laughter. Now, it's not laughter because it's funny, it's laughter because it's so absurd. It's a different kind of laughter. And people that work in very macabre professions will know what I'm talking about. Where...

Chad Law (01:01:49.616)

Yeah.

Chad Law (01:02:03.777)

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Jacob Wohl (01:02:05.222)

You just say, what the hell kind of car crash is this, is the firefighter paramedic, and you chuckle. There's nothing funny about it. He's not laughing because it's funny. It's a response to just how wacky and absurd the situation is. So you laugh a lot because there are things that are just so beyond absurd. Again, not because they're funny, but because they're absurd. That's a big way. So it's a sense of humor, a certain kind of a sense of humor that gets you through it. Because it's like, you tell me you either laugh or you cry, so you better.

Chad Law (01:02:19.397)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (01:02:34.218)

you're better off laughing, especially the women with the makeup. It's not going to work very well if they're crying, although we get a little bit of crying just because of the fatigue, but not too much usually. And so that's kind of how you handle it. You know, and the other dynamic that I haven't mentioned here, it's going to be a question that comes up and I won't belabor it, but it's it's it's been you know, I've done numerous things in politics and and all of that and for better or worse with all that stuff.

Chad Law (01:02:35.378)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (01:03:04.818)

It, um, I will say that I think it's, it's uniquely positioned me to be the person who can do this. It, I mean, and I could go into detail about, you know, if we didn't do the fake FBI rate, I wouldn't be able to do this. Like I wouldn't know the camera guy for one thing that I met during that or whatever there's, there's certain things that, you know, you, that have left me in a position to do this throughout time. But what's shocking about it is that for years, the media wrote about.

Chad Law (01:03:12.232)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (01:03:34.282)

Everything I did and many things I didn't do that. They said I did Alleging that I worked for a certain congressman. I never met in my life and all kinds of just making things up writing I mean, it's it's it would ebb and flow but periods of time where there was 25 articles a day I mean it just about anything that you could mention my name in the article, even if it wasn't about me or something and And so you think you see that and I said, oh my god This is gonna blow their minds when they see this so we blast up the press release

Chad Law (01:03:41.341)

Yeah, exactly.

Chad Law (01:03:49.490)

Yeah.

Chad Law (01:03:53.999)

I've been there.

Jacob Wohl (01:04:04.546)

You get a couple calls back and they're working furiously on the story for season one and the reporters are working and it gets killed at the editorial level over and over again. And I don't know whether it's some of these three letter agencies that put pressure on the editor and shut this down, that we've busted people at these agencies. We're not trying to embarrass the agencies. I mean, that's not our MO with the show. I mean, other people might, I'll leave that to other people if they want to, you know.

Chad Law (01:04:13.874)

Wow.

Chad Law (01:04:25.541)

Wouldn't surprise me.

Chad Law (01:04:29.981)

Right.

Jacob Wohl (01:04:33.002)

If they want to grind the axe against CIA and, you know, Scott Mexic being former CIA is the way they want to do that or something. That's, I'll just leave that to them. But we're too busy with the act of just just busting them. And so, you know, maybe it's that maybe it's just that they're these media people are really no fans of mine. And they don't want to write about something good I've done. But I will say the the

media suppression campaign against this show, the lack of action in the media, the lack of reporting on this. I mean, if a federal judge is forced to resign off the bench amid an inspector general investigation sparked by our investigation, sparked by our bust, I mean, that's newsworthy. And then they say, well, the editor said no, the editor said, well, he's an administrative law judge and he's not...

Chad Law (01:05:23.515)

It's huge.

Jacob Wohl (01:05:29.378)

He's not a district judge, and if he's a magistrate or an ALJ, well, I don't think it's newsworthy. It's like, really? Really?

Chad Law (01:05:37.025)

is ridiculous because you know as much as I know and your dad knows that getting a judge disrobed or unbenched is a nearly impossible feat.

Jacob Wohl (01:05:48.690)

Nearly impossible, nearly impossible. I mean, they literally would have to be caught coming to Mollison Underage Teen on video. And there you go. So, and so it's like the media suppression campaign has been the most enraging part of this. I mean, more than anything, just because, not because, oh, you know, I want credit or this or that, just because look, at some level.

Chad Law (01:05:53.773)

Exactly.

Jacob Wohl (01:06:13.046)

by putting the entire burden on us to try as best we can to spread this show, sometimes using posters, literally hanging up posters in Washington, DC. Because we're banned on social media, we're banned all over the place in terms of the internet, Twitter, you name it, we've got to get back on Twitter. To whatever extent anybody knows anybody on Twitter, I'll put out the call again at Jacob Bay. Well, let's get it unbanned. I don't know what the deal is with that, why it hasn't happened. But.

It's like they put the entire burden on us to publicize this show and all they've got to do. They don't have to rejigger their whole police department. All they've got to do is write the damn article and it is newsworthy and it would get clicks and, and they refuse to publish. So, so that has been really shocking is the media suppression campaign.

Chad Law (01:06:47.025)

Right.

Chad Law (01:06:56.305)

Well, it's who you are, honestly. I just went through this with my attorneys. I've got Apple and Spotify shutting my podcast down every other week, claiming that I'm violent against trans people, which I'm obviously not. But there's such a media bias that really exists, that the bias is astonishing.

and even if you're even that this is a completely bipartisan issue this has nothing to do with republican or democrat this has to do with kids and protecting our children but people that are so stupid on both sides that are more party loyal or side loyal or whatever you want to call it will nitpick and block pieces of information or make your life difficult um

because of those things, because they're putting their ideology in front of actual, you know, crime stopping, if you will, or crime fighting, you know, and then they're going to just do this to you nonstop. So, you know, you're

Jacob Wohl (01:08:04.766)

Yeah, and it's like you go from, it's just, they go from writing about things that are just totally irrelevant, untrue, not newsworthy. Like, you know, oh, Jacob Wohl says, XYZ, you know, says he believes as a Jew, Jews should hang up Christmas lights. And it's like trending and there's 15 stories about it. It's like, oh my gosh, really? You know, and then meanwhile, it's like this, oh yeah, we don't think, we just don't think it's newsworthy. Oh really? Yeah, okay.

Chad Law (01:08:30.079)

haha

Chad Law (01:08:31.737)

Well, you got a couple hundred thousand people listening to you on my show, and I'm going to make some big recommendations that my producer and some of the other colleagues that I work with on a regular basis get you on to interview. I think we have to do what every, you know, group that has been screwed over by the government or by certain factions of the government, which is we got to just do it ourselves. You know?

It's kind of like being Jewish and making sure that they pay their own security guards. They do They've they've taken the protection of their people and the protection from anti-semitism into their own hands And I think that is kind of going to be the theme Forever and has been but even stronger and stronger as we go along that The theme is going to be the only way we're going to be able to spread

good doing, things that are really good, like what you're doing. The only way we're going to split it is within inner channels. We can no longer rely on outer press or traditional communication forms.

Jacob Wohl (01:09:40.490)

Yeah, and I'll just put out the call once again, you know, since people say Twitter is back, let's, you know, if people want to tweet at that Ella Erwin who runs that operation or tweeted Elon or if they know anybody, let's do it because the one thing that would really take Predator over the top would be to have Twitter back. That would really have my account at Jacob A. Wohl back, which was a huge account. That would take Predator DC to the moon. So I'll put out the call one last time for that.

Chad Law (01:10:07.325)

but you're an extreme MAGA white power racist. What the? Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah

Jacob Wohl (01:10:12.024)

Gosh, yeah, whatever they make up. I don't know. God only knows. Yeah.

Jacob Wohl (01:10:35.698)

Well, they can follow the show and start watching some of the show on Rumble. You just look up Predator DC Rumble, you'll see it there. That's where we've been mostly relegated to. There's a little bit of it, I think, left on YouTube, but it's around. That's where people can go watch it. You know, I recommend people wanted to see a really good one. Start with the season two premiere. I'm personally on on Telegram and.

and gab at Jacob A Wallstill hopefully back on Twitter soon. And if they want to donate, they can. They can go to PredatorDC.com and donate there and people do. And we're not a 501c3. You can't be when you do stuff like this that requires this level secrecy and all that. But if people want to chip in and basically be a producer of the show, basically help us do what we do, we are very...

Chad Law (01:11:21.883)

Of course.

Jacob Wohl (01:11:29.902)

pleased with the support and very grateful.

Chad Law (01:11:33.201)

That's awesome. Any plans to be on the West Coast? Maybe do a talk? Maybe we should set up camp here and do some stings? Ha ha ha.

Jacob Wohl (01:11:41.266)

Well, we'll see. I think so. I think so. I'm waiting on some dates, but I think pretty soon. I'll probably be around. I'll let you know.

Chad Law (01:11:47.961)

All right, well, I'll be back in Orange County. We'll have you in the studio in Newport, maybe do a follow-up on some of the cases that have happened between now and then. Awesome. All right, yeah, Jacob, this is awesome. Probably one of the best interviews I've done since the podcast launch. So I really, really appreciate your time and the...

Jacob Wohl (01:11:56.298)

Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Chad. This has really been great.

Jacob Wohl (01:12:03.633)

Oh, I'm flattered. Thank you.

Chad Law (01:12:09.213)

just between you and I, this show will go up on Wednesday. I'll send you all the links and everything that you need and then it'll be on the website, it'll be on Bo Snurdley's site and we'll get it rockin' and rollin'. Hey, you're the best, thanks Jacob.

Jacob Wohl (01:12:14.199)

Perfect.

Jacob Wohl (01:12:22.634)

Wonderful, thanks so much, Chad, I really appreciate it. Thanks.